“We’re seeing…a new wave of witch hunting.” An interview with Mitch Horowitz

HorowitzI discovered Occult America by Mitch Horowitz a few years ago and the book forever changed the way I write dark fantasy and horror. His eloquent and insightful approach to the study of the occult is fascinating. Mitch Horowitz is a nationally known writer, speaker, and publisher in alternative spirituality as well as vice-president and editor-in-chief at Tarcher/Penguin, the division of Penguin books dedicated to metaphysical literature. Deepak Chopra called his work “brilliant” and I would agree. Mitch and I talked about his new book as well as some of his other studies. We also discussed the impact of the Salem Witch Hysteria of 1692, a personal interest of mine. Let me introduce you to Mitch Horowitz.

You have a new book out, One Simple Idea: How Positive Thinking Reshaped Modern Life, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on your childhood and upbringing? You open the book with that story and I’m curious how that’s brought you to where you are today.

I grew up in a traditionally Jewish household and I had an Orthodox Bar Mitzvah. Judaism was a major commitment for me throughout much of my adolescence and into my twenties; but I later came to feel that my search was impelling me toward a variety of ideas and traditions, and diffuse psychological and spiritual methods.

From very early on in childhood I felt strongly that spirituality could be—should be—practical. That’s something that many people wrestle with. Some people have well-formed and sensitive objections to the idea that the spiritual experience should be in any way driven by practicality or cause and effect, or by some kind of transactional prayer. But I’ve felt that spirituality, like any system of self-development, should produce evident changes in the quality and experience of the individual’s life.

I’ve always been attracted to ideas that the individual could pursue in private—experiments in inner-development that any person, in any circumstance or any walk of life, could enact on his or her own. So, the challenge of positive thinking was always very interesting to me both as a child and today because it seemed to hold out the promise that there existed exercises, both of a psychological and mystical nature, that could make a concrete difference in the day-to-day experience of life.  I was always enamored of spiritual systems that were willing to make a bold claim, and the only cost required was the individual’s own private experimentation, which was another element I liked in the positive thinking culture and in the culture of people who worked with mind-power mysticism. I found that appealing.

The metaphysics of mind power doesn’t require you to do anything other than to try it. There’s nothing to join. There’s no one to pay. You don’t have to place a label on yourself. You don’t have to change anything overtly about your outer identity or daily commitments. It’s just a question of whether the directed uses of the mind can produce actual changes in our experiences. I found it too tempting an experiment not to embark upon. I continue that experimentation today.

I believe that there’s truth in the challenge of positive thinking. There’s truth in the principle that our thoughts are causative, although that truth can be very elusive and can be very uneven.  And just when we think we’ve figured it out, the complexities of life can send its possibilities spiraling away from us. Yet I have always believed that there’s a very fuzzy and thin dividing line between the mental and spiritual. Seeking ways to work along that dividing line hold very tantalizing possibilities both for self-development and for deepening our questions about the nature of human existence.

Is it as simple as stripping the institution out of religion?

Mitch at Marble CollegiateI think it’s more than that. You know, I appreciate religious institutions, insofar as that they provide a vessel for practices and ideas. They provide a vessel for me. If we didn’t have religious institutions there is so much material that would be neglected or undeveloped. There are mystics and saints whose lives and whose life stories grew within the institutional religions, and I tend to be a person—and this is true of many Americans—who weaves in and out of institutions. I ultimately walk my own path but that path will sometimes travel into institutions. I’m deeply, deeply respectful of the mysticism within the Catholic Church. There are aspects of Jewish culture to which I remain drawn. There are elements of established religious structures in Protestantism, Buddhism, and Hinduism that I find deeply appealing. So, sometimes the institution will serve as a vessel that can be greatly valuable, and if a person can find his or her home in that vessel, I’d be the first to wish them well.  Personally my life is spent both on and off the institutional path.

Would you consider yourself a Spiritualist?

If you mean “Spiritualist” in the sense that the word was used in the 19th century among people who participated in séances and tried to find means of contacting an invisible world or unseen forces, I would say I’m very sympathetic to their values. I’m sympathetic to their search. But I’d be hard-pressed to place any kind of label on myself. I do see myself as part of the New Age culture. People disparage New Age because they think it’s superficial or shallow, fuzzy or unrealistic in nature. But to me, New Age is simply therapeutic spirituality, and the New Age culture, as it’s developed since the early 1970s, has given a lot of people opportunities to engage in very wide-ranging experiments. Its very lack of definition, its very porousness, is something that I find helpful and refreshing and reflective of the spiritual experience of many Americans. I willingly associate myself with the New Age culture.

I discovered you through your first book, Occult America, and I would guess that the average American would see that word “occult” and they would automatically have a negative or a visceral reaction to it.


What was your intention using that word given your background, and what you were trying to accomplish with the book?

It’s very interesting you would ask that. I became very determined to use the term “occult” just as I use the term “New Age” because I don’t want us to lose our vocabulary, or the historical integrity that some of these terms possess, because they are misunderstood.

occult-america-paperback-front-cover1Something feels very natural and honest to me about using terms like “occult” or “mysticism” or “paranormal” or “New Age.” The occult has a literary, intellectual, and religious tradition and history in the West.  I don’t want us to lose the use of that term because of some of the sinister connotations that have gotten attached to it. The term grew out of the Latin term occulta or occultus during the Renaissance in the early 1500s when religious scholars and translators of ancient texts were looking for a way to refer to the spirituality of the ancient world, specifically Rome, Greece, and Egypt. As Renaissance scholars were discovering this antique spirituality, they were astounded that there existed this whole world of belief, of ritual and ethics, and of religious rites and methods that pre-dated anything known in the modern world at that time. But the structures, priesthoods, and temples of those ancient religions had mostly vanished. Renaissance scholars were left without a way of defining these beliefs. One figure, Cornelius Agrippa, used the Latin term occulta, meaning hidden or secret, to describe a religious system that had fallen into a kind of secrecy—not because it was concealed but because it had grown obscure and was preserved only in manuscripts and books in monastic libraries that were beyond the reach of most scholars. The striving to conceive of a name for this system brought us to the term “occult,” which dates back in our own western history to this period of Renaissance discovery.

I think “occult” served as a sturdy definition for a spirituality that isn’t bound by any one congregation, dogma, or doctrine, and that promulgates the belief that there exists an invisible world, which coincides with our own and whose influences and effects can be felt on us and through us. When that search is carried beyond the parameters of the institutional religions, it’s generally—and rightly—called occult. I felt the term had historical integrity. It also has a certain romance around it. It communicates something of the radical nature of the individual search, and I think it’s a historical mistake that it has been associated with something sinister. I wanted to rescue the term rather than to give in to that association.

I’ve done some extensive research on the Salem Witch Hysteria of 1692. One of the most enlightening books recently published is Mary Beth Norton’s, In the Devil’s Snare: The Salem Witchcraft Crisis of 1692. She attempts to dispel the idea that supernatural beings were at the root of the hysteria. Norton argues it was mostly a fear-based reaction to a frontier war with the Native Americans. Do you think unseen, invisible forces could have been at play in Salem or are these manifestations of the Puritan belief system of the 17th century?

I do write as a believing historian. I do take seriously the challenge presented to us by various esoteric and occult mystical systems, as well as by the mainstream religions. And that challenge is that there is a dimension of human existence that goes beyond the physical. At the same time, my suspicion is that the events at Salem were probably human events that had mostly to do with mob psychology, scapegoating, and mob violence.

I agree.

What’s remarkable about Salem is how exceptional it was in American history. The European witch craze never traveled to America. As tragic as the events of Salem were, and as much as there were other up-croppings of mob violence in America against people with radical religious beliefs—including the Shakers—there never arose this murderous, generations-long, hunting down of people who were perceived to practice the old nature-based religions or Pagan traditions.

one-simple-idea-coverIt’s quite remarkable that Salem was a relatively isolated, if deeply tragic, incident in American history. I’m working on an article about this right now. One of the things I’m concerned about has been what I detect as an increase in violence against people accused of witchcraft around the world, from the South Pacific to Africa, and even sometimes within the Western nations. In the West it occurs mostly within immigrant communities from Asia, the Pacific, or Africa but it has migrated to the West and I feel that we’re seeing—in terms of news coverage and the few statistical gathering efforts that we have—a new wave of witch hunting. This is going on in the Middle East as well. In 2009, Saudi Arabia’s so-called religious police commenced an “Anti-Witchcraft Unit.” Today there is a Lebanese psychic, Ali Hussain Sibat, in a Saudi Arabian jail, and he is there for no reason other than hosting a show in Lebanon call The Hidden, which was a televised psychic show. He was a TV psychic. Sibat was in Saudi Arabia on a religious pilgrimage and he was framed in a sting operation. He was arrested by the religious police, sentenced to death by beheading, but his sentence was commuted, thank God, in 2010. Tragically, he is still being held in a Saudi jail.

I’m trying to get people interested in cases like Sibat’s because I think that we’d all like to believe that mob violence against witchcraft is something that belongs to the era of Salem, but unfortunately, it’s not only going on in the 21st century, but it is going on across the world in ways that I think are unfortunately increasing.  That’s something I’m personally working on right now.

Well said. I agree. Mob violence is rooted in fear and misunderstanding. It’s really unfortunate.

I’d like to thank you for your time.

You’re welcome.

Note on Ali Hussain Sibat:

Mitch Horowitz has written several times to King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz to ask for Sibat’s release, and is currently writing about the issue. Below is an article from the New York Times about Sibat. Mitch asks that anyone interested in writing to the Saudi King requesting Sibat’s release can use this address:

The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz
c/o Royal Embassy of Saudi Arabia
601 New Hampshire Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20037



Official Page
Occult America: White House Seances, Ouija Circles, Masons, and the Secret Mystic History of Our Nation
One Simple Idea: How Positive Thinking Reshaped Modern Life

The Book of Paul trailer for the bestselling horrror novel by Richard Long

The Book of Paul is one of the best books I’ve ever read. I’ve said that unequivocally since I finished reading it a few months ago. Since that time, I’ve interviewed author Richard Long and we’ve discovered a shared passion in the dark, visceral, craft of storytelling. As a musician and a writer, I know the effect sound can have on it (scary movies, anyone?). Richard has been working on a trailer for The Book of Paul and he asked if I’d be interested in helping him do the sound design for it. I immediately began creating and arranging the audio textures, many of which you can hear in the final cut of the trailer.

I believe in Richard and I love The Book of Paul. If you haven’t read it, you need to do so and then you need to review it on Amazon. In the meantime, let’s get Long’s trailer noticed by Hollywood and cross our fingers that someday soon we’ll see the likes of Paul on the big screen. All it takes is a click.


The book Stephen King called “mind-blowing.” – A conversation with Richard Long, author of The Book of Paul.

Getting blurbed by Stephen King is the Holy Grail of the horror writer. If you don’t know what that means, it’s when an author (usually famous) reads your book and gives you a quote to put on the cover of your book to attract readers. For Stephen King to put his name on it, you know the book has to be outstanding. And when you’re talking about The Book of Paul, it is. I first heard Richard Long on a podcast and the way he described his book really caught my attention. He delves deeply into the occult, mythology, and astrophysics. As these are the same themes running through my books, especially The Portal Arcane series, I had to check it out. The Book of Paul does not disappoint. Long wrote it in a “cinematic” style that is fast-paced and streamlined. He doesn’t waste a lot of time on narrative description and his characters are so visceral you’ll swear you’ve been friends with them for years. Contrary to what some of the reviews say, the violence is integral and occurs “off-screen” although that does not make the actions of the characters any less frightening. After all, The Book of Paul is horror and horror is meant to scare you; no sparkly vampires here.

Richard was kind enough to spend some time talking with me from his home in New York City. We discussed his past, his plans for The Book of Paul, what constitutes “horror,” and the damaging nature of drive-by reviews. Long has that NYC swagger and is an engaging fellow. He pulls no punches and possesses a sharp, comedic wit. Read the interview and when you’re finished go buy The Book of Paul. But don’t take my word for it. Just ask Stephen King.

You live in Manhattan, right?


Did you grow up there?

No. I’ve been living in New York since 1980.

That means you’re a New Yorker.

Exactly. I have my citizenship card.

I spent about a year living and working in Manhattan and I thought it was the most incredible city on the planet.

I’ve never even thought about leaving since I’ve been here.

Do you think the New York City influences your writing?

I think that the Book of Paul, in some sense, is a love story for the “back-in-the-day” version of Alphabet City and the East Village when it was really kind of like the Wild West. New York, since I’ve lived here, has changed radically. It was a filthy, scary place when I first came here.  And because I didn’t have any money, I lived in the cheapest part of town and that was really scary. Hence the haunted house feel of Paul’s apartment.

Let’s talk about The Book of Paul. I discovered you on a podcast you were doing with a mutual friend [book blogger & editor, Katy Sozaeva] and The Book of Paul really intrigued me. It’s the type of stuff I write.  And so when I saw the description and heard you talking about it, I had to check it out. I got about 10 pages in and realized right away that it was beautifully grotesque and I absolutely loved it. Can we talk more about the book?

Sure. Fire at will. [laughing]

There’s a reader segment that doesn’t necessarily read book descriptions, then they read the book, and they say things like, “Oh my gosh! This is horribly graphic, and it’s gory, and it’s grotesque, and there’s torture.” How do you respond to that?

Well…read the description. It drives me crazy. I got a one star review from someone that said, “I read three pages and it was just so horrible I put it down.” It’s like, do you understand the concept of a horror story? It’s supposed to be horrible. It’s supposed to scare you. Has there ever been any great horror story that wasn’t gross? That wasn’t gory? I’ve been a horror fan my whole life and I can’t recall of any…some people are…not very bright.

A lot of horror is horror for the sake of violence and clearly that’s not what The Book of Paul is about. The horror serves a purpose. The violence serves a purpose. The element that I love that you’ve incorporated into your storytelling has to do with science, astrophysics, alternate realities, etc. I’m really interested in talking to you about the singularity and M theory. I have read a lot of Michio Kaiku and used his theories as the basis for some of my books [The Portal Arcane series]. So what role does that element play in your books, in your writing?

It’s an overwhelming theme in all the work I do and in my life, in general. I’m a science nut. I’ve read a lot of science magazines and science books. When I was young the two things that interested me the most were science and mythology. I liked all the stories of the Greek gods and Egyptian gods and all that stuff, magical, mystical, monsters and aliens. And I love science, the factual part of it, which I thought was every bit as weird as the mythology, and I still do. Even more so.

The more you learn about science the more you understand that everything that we take so for granted as “normal” is incredibly bizarre. As scientific research progresses, it’s getting stranger and stranger. You read any science article that comes out about consciousness or neurology and you discover that scientists still don’t have a clue what consciousness is. It’s still one of the greatest mysteries in science, and even physics, and there are a lot of big name physicists that spend a lot of their time thinking about consciousness.  There are quantum theories of consciousness. It’s so bizarre that there’s plenty of material to draw from.

One of the things I wanted to accomplish with The Book of Paul and one of the most difficult parts in marketing it was that I really wanted to cover five, six, seven, different genres at once in there. It’s like the blurb Stephen King gave me, “Richard Long combines a bag full of genres…” But that was deliberate. I really wanted to have this kind of Elmore Leonard, pulp crime element in it, a science fiction element in it. I was having a lot of fun, obviously.

The arrangement of The Book of Paul and the style is really engaging and I think you called it the “cinematic” approach. Could you explain to the casual reader what you meant be that and talk about how the book is structured?

Before I wrote this book I had written poetry, and some short forms, but I had never written in the long form. I had been an avid reader. Dostoyevsky was one of my favorites. So when I thought about writing a novel, I’m saying to myself, “You could never write like that.” Fortunately, there was a little voice in my head that said, “You don’t have to write like Dostoyevsky you just have to write like you.” I gave myself permission to write exactly how I wanted. And the other thing I said was, “Only write exactly what you want.” That cut out a lot bullshit. I kept narrative description to an absolute minimum. I really wanted to project the reader into the story, not paint much of a picture of the surroundings but just enough to get you in there where you get a sense of it, emotionally, psychically or whatever, and let the reader fill in the blanks. Make it more collaborative. I’m trying to put you inside the characters so you’re experiencing what they’re experiencing.

When I write, it’s kind of like dreaming. I’ll be walking, or thinking, or sitting, or typing and I’m in a daydream and I hear the people talk, I listen to them talk, and I take dictation. As far as the cinematic quality goes, you’re dealing with a number of different plot threads you really have to orchestrate it. I’m a big movie fan. I love the pacing you can achieve in a good thriller film, and I wanted to cut between the characters in such a way that I built up a lot of tension. It cuts back and forth fairly quickly. The chapters aren’t very long until you get into William’s journals.

I found that lack of narrative description unique because it forces you to really connect with the characters whether you love them or not. I found myself going back and forth throughout the book; liking Paul, hating Paul, pitying him, feeling sorry for him, and sometimes, even rooting for him. I have to assume that’s by design.

Any good thriller or horror book is only as good as the villain. When I read books that have a really shitty villain who has very little “screen time,” if you will, there is so little dramatic tension. If the protagonist has to overcome really dramatic obstacles, you’ve got to have a great antagonist. Otherwise…big deal. I wanted to create the best villain I possibly could. I wanted to see if I could make a classic villain. Any classic villain that’s good, you’re rooting for them on some level.

I agree.

Like Breaking Bad. As the series wraps up and Walter White become more and more evil, there’s still a part of me that doesn’t want him to get caught. That makes me question myself and that’s what I want the reader to experience. I want the reader to say, “What the hell? What’s inside of me that I’m rooting for this bad guy to get away with it? That’s awful, I’m awful.”

I thought Rose was one of the most intriguing characters. I just could not quite put my finger on her as far as her motivations and her role in all of this. Are these characters going to appear again and are you going to expand on them? This is only the first book, right? You have six more lined up after this?

All the characters that appear in this one are going to be marching forward plus many new ones. There’s an awful lot of new ones.

Do you have a time frame for those books?

No. I just finished my YA book called, The Dream Palace, and it’s with a couple of agents right now. I’d like to go the traditional route with that.


We’ll see what happens. If it does go that way and I get a deal, it won’t be published for a while. I’m sure everyone will have their editing suggestions. For The Book of Paul, I’ve written well over a thousand pages, unpublished so far. There are various prequels and sequels, stuff like that. It’s like a quilt.

You’re not at the bottom of the mountain looking up. You have a volume of work in progress that you’re going to pick from.

Yes, there’s a lot of stuff.

Is the YA title going to be released under your name or are you going to use a different pen name for that?

I think I might use a different pen name because The Book of Paul is so adult. When I started it, I didn’t have children. When I had children, I said, “I’d like to write something that they can read before they turn eighteen.” So, I started The Dream Palace. I have an autistic daughter who is now eleven years old and The Dream Palace, in some degree, was my way of processing what it means to have a child with an alternate neurology; what your expectations are, what you are told. When we got the diagnosis of autism I didn’t know shit about it. I didn’t know anything. You’re told this is a tragedy, that it’s an awful thing. Many tears are shed and in the years that have passed I have come to realize that there are all kinds of wonderful things about that type of neurology. So anyway, there’s a part of it that’s a journey into that world, through the dream world. It started one time when my daughter was asleep, she was probably two or three years old at the time and she couldn’t speak much at all. She woke up from a dream and she spoke to me in a full sentence.


It made me wonder, “In her dreams is it easy for her to talk?” Interestingly enough, when I went to an Autism conference recently and met a number of nonverbal autistics and had the opportunity to ask a few people that question, they said, “Yes.” They can talk in their dreams. They also said, it was easy. And, they look forward to dreaming. That’s by no means a survey. It was only few people I asked but it was very exciting for me.

It’s not unlike the people that have a head trauma and then they wake up out of a coma and they can speak four languages that they never spoke before, right?

It’s that concept, yes.

Tell me about the Kickstarter campaign and the book trailer you’re doing for The Book of Paul.

I worked in advertising for a long time. I directed and wrote a number of television commercials and radio commercials so I had experience doing that kind of thing. When I first self-published people were saying, “Oh, you’ve gotta do a book trailer.” So, I looked at some of the book trailers, and I was like, “I’m not going to put out squirrely shit like this!” Just still pictures and type scrolls and stuff.

So being the nut that I am, I came up with the idea to make a book trailer like a movie trailer as if the movie’s already been made and you’re seeing the preview for it. It was a fun idea so I cast it and at first I had confined the action to what could be a one day shoot. I wanted a cool, moody piece, and then the director of photography I was working with, Sergei Wilson—he’s really talented he read the book and he said, “Man, you’ve got too much wild shit here to not show more scenes from it.” I didn’t really have the money to do that. All the cast had volunteered to do it, not for pay…for their reels. But just the production costs: camera and lighting rental, sets, props, all of that stuff costs a lot. So, I raised about $3,500 for it on Kickstarter, but that was about half the cost as it turned out. I’m editing it right now and I’m shooting for a Halloween release.

It was all shot on digital then, I would assume?

Yes. High-end RED cameras.

What are you using to edit?

I use Final Cut Pro 7. I’m doing the rough cut myself so I can sift through everything and take out the best cuts. I’m just doing straight cuts. Then I’ll work with an editor who’s very, very, accomplished and he’ll do the polish on it.

What’s your hope for that trailer? I think trailers are one of those things that authors do and they’re not really sure why.

I’m pretty clear. I want to get a movie deal or a TV deal. I think that The Book of Paul would be an awesome HBO, Showtime or AMC series. It’s a big story. You’ve read the book. Can you really cover that effectively in two hours?  What do you think?

Probably not.

You’d lose a lot. You’d have to cut a lot. It’s not that I wouldn’t want to see it in a movie and I think you could. But I’ve really gotten into watching serialized television. There are a lot of shows that I watch and I love. We’re in the so-called “golden age of television” and I think that’s really true. So my hope is to get a TV deal for it.

Could that include something like a Netflix-only serial?

There are a number of great outlets right now. The networks are doing great continuing dramas. Lost was a big pioneer. So was Dallas! With The Book of Paul, it’s so adult that it either has to be HBO, Showtime; maybe AMC. Netflix is a great new outlet and Amazon too.

Almost every other day I come across an article that says that erotica is the hot genre [pun intended] right now and that horror is dead. Horror sales are down and no one wants to read horror. How do you respond to that?

The topic of one of my radio shows was “What is a thriller?” and we had a big conversation about horror books being reclassified as thrillers. The horror label became a pariah for traditional publishers, so they decided “Let’s put everything under thrillers and fantasies.” If you look in the fantasy section of Barnes and Noble you’ll see all these horror books there because everybody is terrified of horror. Yet, when I started doing social networking, I met tons and tons of horror lovers out there. All these horror movies are so successful, too. I think it’s just another example of the publishing industry being out of touch with what people really want. You can’t have all these people paying to see blockbuster horror movies if they don’t also want to read horror books. But that’s they’re call, I guess. That’s the way that they’re categorizing stuff. Still, there are so many hard-core horror fans.  Go to Twitter and put “horror” in the search engine and you’ll get a million hits.

There are a lot of fans of horror out there.

And they probably won’t stop reading your horror book after three pages.

Probably not! [laughing]

“So horrible!!! Nasty!”

Do you read your reviews?

Yes. Unfortunately.

I think I’m like most artists. Confident and insecure. When I get a 5-star review that’ll stay with me for a little while, but when I get a 1-star review that’ll stay with me a lot longer. People have been telling me that there are a lot of authors out there who get jealous of your work and then trash you with lousy reviews. I thought I was being paranoid until I got one recently that was so mean-spirited, and, it was the only review she had ever done. It just made me wonder, “What axe do you have to grind?” So yeah, I read everything and I’m way too sensitive. That’s a problem.

One of the things that these people giving 1 or 2-star reviews when they haven’t read the book, what they don’t realize is they’re really, really, hurting the author. You can’t get on BookBub unless you‘ve got a high-star average for reviews. It’s the most effective way for independent authors to get their work in front of a lot people. And so, you’re really hurting indie authors. It hurts traditionally published authors too but it’s they have other marketing avenues available to them. It really hurts an indie that’s doing all the marketing work themselves.

However, I have faith in readers. I think they see through the bullshit and when they see a one-star review with someone that says, “I couldn’t get into this book,” and then they’re reviewing it; I think readers see through that. As we close the conversation, is there anything you want to say to people who might be finding you for the first time through this blog post?

In a lot of reviews I get “not for the faint of heart.” There are some rough parts in The Book of Paul but the violence isn’t gratuitous and very little violence in the book is actually described. A lot happens “off camera.” So the readers are the ones creating the more precise images in their minds. I think fans of horror, thrillers, mystery, mythology, Dan Brown, Tarantino, pulp fiction, erotica—they’ll all like elements of it. There’s something in there for everyone. It’s a roller coaster. A wild ride.

It is. And it’s punctuated very cleverly with great dark humor and I think that that carries the story through as well.

Yes. The Irish. [laughing]

Absolutely. I really appreciate your time.

Thanks. I really appreciate you taking the time and your interest and support.


The Book of Paul on Amazon – http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0088QYXGA
Official – http://www.thebookofpaul.com/
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